FOX Bitchslaps DOLLHOUSE Fansite, Fansite Then Reacts Poorly

2nd Update:  Some people have the problem with the word “lie,” in the following post.  There are questions about whether it’s a loaded word and question its accuracy.  My take is this:  FOX is mad because the site provided false information that they further implied was official.  To me that is lying.  Was it malicious in intent?  No.  Was it false?  Yes.  Did they know it was false?  No, but they knew it wasn’t official but they still provided the information as if it was.  That is by definition lying.  Again it wasn’t malicious in intent nor intended to hurt the show.  The point of the following article is it was supposed to be noticed for the irony that it is.  FOX hurts Whedon show, FIREFLY, fans try to save it.  This time fans hurt Whedon show, FOX tries to save it.  It’s ironic.  I don’t believe Dollverse is bad or meant to do anything bad.  I’m leaving this up in its original form to remind me to choose my words more carefully next time so as not to confuse people.

Update:  I’ve had it explained to me that Dollverse claims they confirmed with FOX about EPITAPH ONE’s airing and were convinced they were right because FOX assured them “every episode will air.”  However Dollverse never found out that FOX had never licensed EPITAPH ONE.  So their source that it was ever scheduled and that it would be pre-empted was just plain wrong.  Which is what FOX is upset about.  I take the email from FOX (which should have remained private) to mean “In the future please confirm with us about air dates,” and that means FOX is willing to confirm air dates for them.  Still the Dollverse people are taking this as an attack on them and their rights.

Original Posting Follows:

There is a website called “Dollverse,” and it’s a fan site for Joss Whedon’s DOLLHOUSE.  The chain of events that lead up to the very appropriate bitchslap is very convoluted.  The simple answer is FOX ordered 13 episodes, made them shoot another pilot and chose not to air the original pilot.  FOX Studios ordered a 14th episode for the DVD set.  FOX Broadcasting never bought the 14th episode.  Kevin Reilly (and others) keep making the mistake of saying “We’re going to air all 13 episodes,” and the Dollverse people took that to mean EPITAPH ONE (the 14th episode) would be aired.

The problem is FOX never had it planned to air.  So here is what Dollverse did:  They claimed FOX decided to pre-empt the airing of the 14th episode.  The problem?  They were lying.  This turn of events caused DOLLHOUSE fans to think the show was certainly canceled, etc.  In fact many (myself included) feel that Dollverse cost DOLLHOUSE bad PR and the idea the show had no chance of coming back.  I tried to say on TVBTN that it wasn’t part of the equation but I don’t think anyone believed me and honestly I don’t blame them.  When you’re lead to believe a show was pre-empted with no plans of airing, that is bad.  I later found out they never licensed the show and wanted it for Season 2 like I reported on TVBTN weeks ago.

So FOX sends Dollverse an email.  The email states posted an incorrect airdate schedule for the remaining season one episode stated as fact that “Epitaph One” would air on May 15, then May 22 – which was never announced by the network – as we never licensed that episode for air.

Moving forward do not make any further announcements on your site regarding network scheduling unless you receive notification from the network that scheduling is confirmed – you are doing a great disservice to the show and your own site. Clearing up your misperceptions of the show has become very time consuming and frankly takes away valuable time that could be spent actively marketing the series in the proper way.”

So how does Dollverse respond:  Dollverse was recently told by FOX it can not cover something about the TV series Dollhouse, in perhaps a watershed moment in terms of a network attempting to control a fan site output.

So their response is that FOX is now trying to control them!  Lets not forget the fact that they flat out lied about the show airing on May 15th and May 22nd.  FOX had never licensed the episode!  Dollverse is trying to twist this into a Big Brother situation when the correct response is:

“We,re truly sorry.  We will not in the future post scheduling information unless it is confirmed by FOX.”  How hard is that?  Obviously too hard for the bruised egos at Dollverse…

Here is the complete take by Dollverse:


95 responses to “FOX Bitchslaps DOLLHOUSE Fansite, Fansite Then Reacts Poorly

  1. dsfjr1190 (David)

    Seriously? What is Dollverse’s problem? That is not how you communicate with a network. They should be grateful that FOX even knows about their little fansite and cared enough to contact them.

    I foresee more drama to come between FOX and Dollverse in the future.

    And I never thought I’d be rooting for FOX in anything, but… GO FOX!

  2. I should add before attacked, that I respect Dollverse and I’m certain they provide great service for DOLLHOUSE and Fox most of the time. You have to however admit a mistake when you make one. They made a mistake and what FOX is requesting isn’t evil or Big Brother in the slightest. They’re asking this site to not lie to its readers on accident any more.

  3. If they succeed in turning FOX into the enemy among the fans I don’t see the show lasting long. Not sure what their goal is, but their actions sure seem poorly thought out.

  4. dsfjr1190, what you’re going to see though if you got other sites (like Whedonesque) that the “fans,” are going to all be on the side of Dollverse. The guy who runs it is a known member of their “community.” So it doesn’t matter that in this case he’s wrong or that in this case he may have hurt the show.

    I can find people posting things like “Well if FOX isn’t airing Epitaph One I’m done! Why keep watching when I know they’re just canceling it?” and for every one person who posts there are likely hundreds to thousands who feel the same but don’t post.

    Have people not noticed the trend that shows the media reports are “near cancellation,” generally lose viewers?

  5. Frank, no doubt. The site also had a chance to privately respond and treat the situation with respect towards FOX. This was a golden opportunity in my mind to befriend a FOX publicity director! That could have been worth a lot to a fan site. Instead he chose to bite the hand that was contact him obviously upset.

    The situation could have and should have been handled more delicately. Having a friend like Todd Adair only could have helped Dollverse and the future of DOLLHOUSE.

    It’s sad.

  6. dsfjr1190 (David)

    Yeah Nick, I know how insane fans can be; especially with these genre shows.

    It is just irrational. I get that they hate FOX and all, but they have to know they are wrong, don’t they? FOX just simply doesn’t want false information spread to the fans of the show. I really don’t see why Dollverse is so worked up over this.

  7. what you’re going to see though if you got other sites (like Whedonesque) that the “fans,” are going to all be on the side of Dollverse.

    Actually, if you bother to actually read the thread on this over there, you’ll see it can’t actually be over-generalized in that way. It’s definitely one-sided, but it’s be no means unanimous.

  8. b!x, may I call you b!x? 😉

    You’re most definitely correct. I chose my wording poorly. I should not have implied “all,” but rather “a good portion.”

    It doesn’t stop the fact that in this case, FOX is correct. However from my dealings with FOX I would say they’re also to blame by not clarifying that they hadn’t licensed EPITAPH ONE because they wanted to hold it for Season 2.

    However by the time they (FOX) were willing to clarify that the damage had been done by Dollverse by implying an episode would be pre-empted and never aired.

  9. To me it just seems highly self-destructive. Getting into a war over the air date, real or imagined, of an episode is beyond ridiculous.

    So what if they have to wait for the DVD, the end of the series, or ever to see the episode? It doesn’t matter. They’re going to get all the episodes they want next season. And you can be sure Whedon will put anything he felt that “lost” episode lent to the series into the new episodes.

  10. Whedon should bitchslap them too. 🙂

  11. Frank, the problem here is that what upsets FOX about this is that Dollverse is in their mind a source of bad PR that lead to viewership loss. The problem isn’t will it air in the summer or ever, but that Dollverse keeps mistakenly claiming the show ill air when there are currently no plans for it to air and there never were, with never being the important word there.

    It is silly, it is self destructive. DOLLHOUSE fans need to stop bickering and start embracing the show. Be happy. It’s renewed! Get out there and buy DVD gift sets for friends. Promote it! Help make sure it comes back strong vs. how weak it was when it went off the air.

    For God’s sake the show was renewed. It’s deserving of POSITIVE HYPE right now not more negative nonsense.

  12. imkeh, that would rock! Too bad he is busy with his Cabin movie.

  13. I’ll post about DOLLHOUSE in a positive manner some time tomorrow. The show has a lot of people wondering: WHY FOX WHY!?!?! I’ll try to answer those.

  14. Actually, for better or for worse (and I’d argue the former), this is precisely the sort of thing Joss is better off steering clear of by a country mile, as he’s smartly done before when controversies have cropped up within this fandom.

  15. b!x, I’d agree. However a behind the scenes message to the Dollverse people might not be a bad idea. This isn’t the type of thing DOLLHOUSE needs right now. It needs positive support. I’ll try and write one up tomorrow.

  16. While it would have been wiser to keep the E-mail private (and it would have been wiser for Adair to say “*please* do not make any further announcements”), I can’t see any moral or ethical (“should”) problem to actually posting it–there’s not a much more public-facing gig than director of publicity.

  17. Wheezer, just the same when FOX sends a cease and desist order, Dollverse shouldn’t be surprised after the way they treated the situation. It was stupid to post publicly. It only hurt their relations with FOX. FOX didn’t lie about Dollverse, Dollverse lied about FOX. Now they’re airing their private grievance. I know some at FOX are pissed (heard it first hand).

    Why do that? Who does it help? Does it help Mutant Enemy at all? No. Could it hurt their relations at all? Yes.

    So there for it was stupid.

    Also FOX doesn’t have to say “please,” because they could easily have sent a cease and desist. Now Dollverse has practically begged for one. This isn’t spreading spoilers or something FOX can’t legally do anything about. This is spreading lies about FOX. That they most definitely can do something about.

    If I posted on here “FOX has no plans of ever airing anymore AMERICAN IDOL,” and I was somehow able to convince thousands and thousands of people of it, you bet your ass they’d be on mine.

  18. I was referring just to whether it was intrinsically reprehensible to publicly document the E-mail. I don’t think it was. It certainly sounds like a dumb move on Dollverse’s part, but I don’t know any details of the griping.

    The issue of C&D’s, SLAPP suits, etc., is rather different, so I won’t continue in that vein unless you’re interested in kicking it around.

  19. Wheezer, it was a reprehensible act as it served to benefit no one, but to hurt and/or embarrass the other party. To people outside “the community,” they look incredibly silly and irresponsible.

    I sure hope it doesn’t result in SLAPP suits, and I would seriously doubt FOX would go there. Will they send a cease and desist? Who knows? I’d say they’re more likely to react in that kind of manner now though.

    The sad thing is that Dollverse was given an opportunity to make something really good come out of it all and they chose to go a horribly different path.

  20. OK Dollhouse fans:

    1. Go to the Terminator: Sarah Connor Chronicles Wiki.
    2. Go to any of the discussions threads, especially anything to do with the cancellation of T:SCC.
    3. Question whether you really, really, want to be this obsessed with a TV show.
    4. Take a step back, think logically, reread Fox’s email, take it as the “Please don’t post BS, even if you think it’s true” thing it was (maybe it was harshly worded, I don’t know, but it wasn’t exactly a C&D), and be cool.

    Nick – it doesn’t sound to me like they’re planning C&Ds. It looks like they’re annoyed that someone posted something that was untrue and thought someone, somewhere, was doing so in bad faith. If Fox had a list of people to C&D over bogus rumors, they’d have a long list well ahead of Dollverse.

  21. From what I understand, most of Dollverse’s content over the entirety of its existence was not “provided” by FOX, so it’s not like FOX can threaten to “withhold” or “stop feeding” information from Dollverse. If FOX cuts all ties with Dollverse, as your article suggests it might, then the content on Dollverse would be….exactly the same as it is now.

    Given FOX’s lack of involvement in the promotion of the show, and their lack of contributions to the Dollverse site in particular, they are in NO position to send them emails regarding the site (unless there is copyright infringement, which there isn’t). Dollverse, and any fan effort, is unofficial, unpaid, and therefore NOT subject to the whims/commands of FOX.

    As for the decision to publish the email, any PR person worth his salary KNOWS that anything they send is open to such scrutiny. In fact, any person with any knowledge of human nature knows that, even in pre-internet times, any statement put to paper can be held against you. If you can’t stand by a statement in a public forum, then you shouldn’t set it to paper (or email).

    In addition to this non-expectation of privacy, the email’s tone, and the notion that Dollverse is “hurting” Dollhouse would make me want to publish the email as well. I don’t know the webmaster, but I imagine that I would be mighty angry if I spend copious amounts of time giving free publicity and support to their show, only to have them piss on me. The burden shouldn’t be on this very popular fansite to get into FOX’s good graces, but the other way around. FOX benefits monetarily from Dollverse’s efforts.

  22. Yello. Dollverse is my site. As far as I know, we never claimed episode 13 was pre-empted. We said FOX chose not to buy it. We were not lying about that.

    I get the PR persons point of view, but the problem — for me — is that I’m a viewer, they’re the publicity people. Between FOX PR, 20th and 20th Home Entertainment they should have sorted the 13th episode situation out themselves at the time. They didn’t.

    Instead, they passed the blame to me. I know their publicity people actually told some members of the press the only reason fans knew about the episode was because I had told them about it (because those members of the press then told me). That’s wrong. Joss Whedon had been telling people about the episode in interviews and online

    The idea I caused the episode 13 PR disaster — which, by the way, it was — is wrong. Not my fault. I resent the fact they’ve tried to pass it back entirely on me both internally and externally, and I’ve now taken that up with the network both directly and publicly since the response has been so poor.

  23. Artemis – of course they’re in a position to send the email. They can’t force Dollverse to do something, but it’s perfectly reasonable for them to smack a site down using the glorious power of words that they feel has done something that damages them.

    If Fox was making legal threats, then I’d suggest they’re in the wrong in sending them, but they haven’t made any and there’s not even the suggestion that they plan to if they don’t get their way.

    This is all healthy and reasonable. People not communicating their concerns is unhealthy. People, corporations, whatever, being afraid to communicate the fact that some other group’s actions are damaging to both themselves and the group, is very unhealthy indeed.

  24. By the way, Nick, I’ve just read through your comments. You keep saying I’m lying about something, but I’m confused what. Because: I’m not.

  25. Marian Martell

    Your statement ‘that Fox never intended to air’ leaves out one detail: Kevin Reilly had publicly committed to air “all 13 episodes”. The fans believed that statement to mean that 13 episodes would air, no one at Fox ever corrected that impression until after Felicia Day tweeted that her episode wasn’t going to air.

    And I have to say that it still makes sense for Fox to air it some day (before season 2 begins). Personally I’ll see a bootlegged copy via the airing in the UK (I have friends), because I cannot get to the showing at ComicCon. But of course I would buy the DVD regardless.

    It is sweet that you want to defend the huge mega-corporation that is Fox, but saying they NEVER planned to show the episode isn’t credible. Some of them thought they would, and it is obvious that eventually they will.

  26. gossi, maybe he’s talking about this? Quote: “we’ve been tipped off the May 15th airing of “Epitaph One” (yes, the finale) may be pre-empted by the Prison Break finale.”

    I guess it depends on the definition of “lying”, but you’re framing sentence (“Fox have told Dollverse…”) suggests you got the E1-airdate from them, which – so it turns out – you didn’t. Fox can’t pre-empt an episode they never ordered, bought for or intended to air.

  27. Oh, sorry, “your”, not “you’re”. Oh, how embarrassing.

  28. That… is a very good point. Hawhaw. I was told by FOX PR that all the episodes would air. Then somebody told me episode 13 wouldn’t air, and I *asked FOX PR about that* (this is back in March* and they denied it.

  29. But, you’re right, saying it was pre-empted by episode 13 was wrong and I shouldn’t have done that in retrospect. That’s called gettin’ it wrong.

    FOX PR were watching the site at the time but apparently didn’t chose to clarify it.

  30. Marian Martell

    I also want to object to your statement that the PR guy’s email to gossi should have been kept private: if I write an angry letter to the editor of a newspaper or a website then I have no expectation of privacy, in fact the expectation is that it will be published if it is ‘newsworthy’. I think that a PR guy should know that any information he gives out (even if it is just a bitch slap) could be considered to be news. He IS (supposedly) in Public Relations after all.

  31. So, the big misunderstanding was: They meant “all episode we bought, up until 12, will air” and you took it to mean something different (and added some airdate speculation to it). When then somebody tipped you off about E1 you added an Update that made FBC look like a) canceling the show and b) doing so by treating an episode badly which they never even had to treat at all. Fox PR is here fighting for an image that was ruined by 20th Century Fox PR, if you ask me. FBC PR have to tackle pre-emption rumors of an episode that never ever was part of their business plan. Because they get the blame when words like “pre-emted” fly around. For me it feels like they’re working overtime, keeping a DVD Extra under control, which was never their job to begin with. And maybe that’s where their frustration comes from.

    Don’t get me wrong, their letter was out of line regarding the tone, if you ask me. But these two posts on Dollverse (Mar 27 and May 18) actually could have avoided all that by being a little more clear on what Fox told you, and what you added as opinion.

  32. I agree. Restropect, and all that.

    But here’s a thing. If you take Dollverse out the equation, Felicia would still have tweeted saying her episode wasn’t going to air. Do you think the fans would have reacted well, and the issue wouldn’t have kicked off anyway?

    I know some of the FOX publicity team told members of the press – at the time – Dollverse and the Dollhouse Wikia wiki were to blame for the confusion about the episode (hence the Wapo article). Because those members of the press told me. The problem is, I’m a fucking fansite and they’re a PUBLICITY TEAM. They should have seen the issue from a mile away. The reaction they’ve had is to blame the fans of the show, and you know: partly, they’re right. Mostly: they’re wrong.

  33. I totally agree with you on that Felicia would have brought it up anyway and 20th Century Fox PR should have done something in that regard (it is their episode, and Felicia did it on their budget).

    I’ve never heard of the Dollhouse Wikia being involved, that’s interesting.

  34. Artemis, I never made the assumption that FOX provided anything to Dollverse. I made the assumption (and correctly) that Dollverse supplied false information in an authoritative manner that in the end may have cost them viewers (and imho did). FOX (rudely or not) asked them to stop doing so and to get confirmation from them in the future (meaning they’re opening direct dialogue between the two).

    Sure it wasn’t written great. However it most definitely should not have been published. No newspaper would ever have done such a thing. They would have written an editorial without quoting and stating their reasons for the mistakes possibly. They wouldn’t have printed the letter. They would have possibly (more likely) requested a public statement about it, and that they would have printed.

    To suggest that even newspapers would act so rudely show a complete lack of knowledge of how journalists behave.

  35. Marian, whether or not Kevin made a mistake in how he phrased things doesn’t matter. The fact is that FOX never licensed EPITAPH ONE for broadcast. So any web site that was displaying an air date for the episode didn’t get that information from FOX.

    What if editors hadn’t made incorrect assumptions on a website that people go to for information? Then the fan base would have likely responded with “Where is Epitaph One?” even before Felicia Day made a very unfortunate professional mistake. It may have been cleared up before then. It may not have. We don’t know.

  36. gossi, you supplied information that was untrue. That is technically a lie. Did you do so with obvious contempt towards FOX? No. Did you do so unaware? Yes. If my wording upsets you I’m sorry, but I chose the words carefully. They were supposed to upset you in hopes that you notice that how you reacted was wrong.

    I’d pull it from your website, I’d pull discussions about it from your website. If Whedonesque and others did the same, I too would pull it from my blog. It’s dirty laundry that really doesn’t need to taint DOLLHOUSE which has had enough bad image associated with it before it ever even aired. It doesn’t need more now that FOX has shown faith in it.

  37. gossi, I would even suggest going out and offering an olive branch to Todd and try to build a healthy relationship with him. Get a clear and precise way to get confirmation about scheduling from him or his people. Get him to agree that they will confirm and in an acceptable time frame. Agree to spin this the other way, and state that FOX is showing true interest in DOLLHOUSE in a positive way (which that email rude or not was for). Help him get free good pub. He’ll reward you, it’s his job.

  38. I must also add, that the reactions of Whedonites on here to my post has been very well behaved. No one has called me names and everyone has discussed this issue with a level head.

    That to me shows just what kind of fans Joss is lucky to have. I’ve been very surprised and thankful for the type of responses I’ve received.

  39. Nick (one day we’ll find out your real name);

    Before publishing that email I took it back to Todd and his publicity team. And Reilly. They didn’t respond.

    Whilst I know the issue he’s trying to box off, I thought he was totally rude about it. Their publicity department has given me 0 over the few years, and I’ve had that email as my thanks for supporting the show from the PR department. I’ve no interest in working with them, because… well, why bother?

  40. gossi, so you actually asked for a public statement and they just didn’t respond? In that case I can understand some of your actions. I still wouldn’t have made the assumption they want to control your output, they just want to stop inaccurate scheduling announcements. I also wouldn’t have posted the email. I would have written an editorial and pointed out all their mistakes during this whole “13th episode,” ordeal and mentioned the email and called them out for not even responding to show they’d be willing to confirm scheduling!

    However I also don’t know how you “took it back to Todd,” and don’t know the tone or anything. It’s not easy to pull off. You can’t be rude and you can’t be so nice you seem condescending. Slippery slopes and all that…

    Why bother to open a relationship with them? To provide your constituents with more accurate data and to get easier access to things like interviews, trailers, etc.

    The truth is that if your the biggest DOLLHOUSE site (and I think you are) they should be wanting to do business with you.

  41. There’s only two DOLLHOUSE websites left. closed down because they didn’t like the show, as did DollhouseFans and… I’ve forgotten the other one, but it was big.

    When you google Dollhouse, you find Dollverse. It’s mentioned on the DVD they’re about to put out in interviews, last I saw. This whole issue has turned into a giant clusterfuck as far as I’m concerned.

    At the end of the day, I never considered asking the publicity department for an official response to Todd’s email, because he’s the publicity director. He’s responsible for that department. I’m also not a newspaper. I’m a fansite. I’m not paid by anybody, and the only thing I’m interested in is watching a neato TV show.

  42. Marian Martell

    “They wouldn’t have printed the letter. They would have possibly (more likely) requested a public statement about it, and that they would have printed.

    “To suggest that even newspapers would act so rudely show a complete lack of knowledge of how journalists behave.”

    Seriously? Because I used to work for the Senate Committee on the Judiciary in Washington, DC and I know for a fact that if a reporter receives a letter on official Committee stationary they consider that to be totally printable. They will try to follow up and talk to the writer (as gossi did in this case), but they would still consider that to be a public statement simply because it was written in an official capacity to strangers (ie the reporter at the paper).

    Todd was not personally acquainted with gossi and used his official title and email address, I don’t see how this can be viewed as a personal or private communication.

  43. Yes, for the record: I don’t know Todd, and the email was out of the blue. “Yet again”, as he says, is curious – I’ve never once had a correction email from FOX’s Publicity department.

  44. Marian, I hope you know the difference between government and private corporations and parties. Anything on official Committee stationary is public. We the public have the right to request copies of it! That is entirely a different subject matter.

    Gossi has admitted why he made the error, he isn’t a journalist. He’s a fan. He didn’t take any classes on journalism ethics. Which is something I might add that Todd should have known.

  45. Gossi, you seem like a good guy who made a mistake after someone treated them very rudely. If you want to make it disappear I’m sure the folks at Whedonesque would have no problem making this disappear just like me.

  46. I’ve no intention of making it disappear unless they apologise. If they had just sent an email saying “Hey! You got the ep 13 thing wrong again, could you clarify FOX deny this?” I would have gone “Sure!”. I still believe 13 will air as I’m told they’ve licensed it, and since they’ve gone about it in this curious way I’m not about to roll over and be their e-bitch in the future.

  47. “Artemis, I never made the assumption that FOX provided anything to Dollverse. I made the assumption (and correctly) that Dollverse supplied false information in an authoritative manner that in the end may have cost them viewers (and imho did). FOX (rudely or not) asked them to stop doing so and to get confirmation from them in the future (meaning they’re opening direct dialogue between the two).”

    Since the content on Dollverse has been obtained w/o Fox’s support and cooperation, they don’t NEED Fox to operate, so Fox has no leverage with which to launch such an email. So long as the creative talent behind Dollhouse opens up to Dollverse, the site can bypass Fox altogether. Dollverse doesn’t have to bend over backwards for them.

    “Sure it wasn’t written great. However it most definitely should not have been published. No newspaper would ever have done such a thing.”

    I’m a fan of transparency, simple as that. If Fox is sending out emails concerning a site I visit or a show I watch, I want to read it. I do believe in that old cliche “the truth will set you free.” There is absolutely zero reason to cover Fox’s ass. As I said, I also don’t write emails to people that I wouldn’t stand behind in the light of day. If they are embarrassed by that email, then they should have written one that wouldn’t embarrass them when brought to light. To re-iterate, I don’t think there’s ever anything wrong with transparecy, and if one person comes out looking like an idiot, then the reason is that he wrote an idiotic letter, not the publishing of that letter.

  48. gossi, they don’t have to apologize. They think you cost them .2 or more in demo loss of viewers! They specifically believe your inaccurate schedule lead everyone to believe the episode was airing on May 15th including Felicia Day! Without your schedule they don’t think the uproar ever would have surfaced.

    Who knows if they’re right or wrong. I do know that you acting like an ass isn’t justified by their acting like an ass. Grow up.

  49. Artemis, and what happens when FOX makes everyone on DOLLHOUSE sign a NDA that specifically mentions Dollverse?

    It is ok for you to believe in transparency. However there is a thing called ethics and it was an unethical act. You might want everyone to do it, but that just means you’re unethical too.

    It was a private email, not public. I’m sure you made mistakes that you wouldn’t want the entire internet to have access to.

  50. I’m also not a newspaper. I’m a fansite. I’m not paid by anybody, and the only thing I’m interested in is watching a neato TV show.

    To be fair here, though, you don’t always operate Dollverse strictly as a fansite. You sometimes operate it as a scoop site, and there are times when those two things conflict with each other. And when they do conflict with each other, and the operator choose to go “scoop”, they really can’t roll themselves back to saying “but we’re just a fansite”. My suspicion — and I fully admit it’s simply my suspicion, it’s not like I have anyone sayig this to me — is that this also is part of the context of FOX PR’s frustration.

    All of which is complicated by the fact that you also run, which positions itself more expressly as a newsy site than a fansite. I’d think that also fed into FOX PR’s frustration as to not knowing how to deal with you.

    On the one hand, you want to run news-like scoops and also run an entire other newsy-positioned website, which might lead FOX PR to believe you follow basic journalistic guidelines and ethics. But then, when those don’t suit what you want to do, you simply say “but I’m jut a fansite”.

    Were I in FOX PR, that would irritate me, too.

  51. Gossi:

    I could sort of see your point of view (although I think publishing the letter was an overreaction) up until your statement above that you won’t back down without an apology from Fox. This is so wrong and juvenile on so many levels, you really are just thin skinned and clearly you don’t give a crap about the TV show because you don’t care whether your blogging efforts hurts Whedon’s show or not and you are not willing to let it go.

    Take the stuff off your site and chill out. Seriously.

  52. Agreed, Dave.

    At this point gossi is just giving ” fan sites” a bad name and making it harder for others to work with the network.

  53. Wow, John T Folden himself came on my website and agreed with something I posted! I’m staying inside today in case it starts to rain blood or toads. 😉

    Seriously, welcome to the site John, I look forward to you bashing my rumors!

  54. “Without [gossi’s] schedule they don’t think the uproar ever would have surfaced.”

    Now that’s just ridiculous! Everyone knew there was a 13th episode, and at that point in time no one had any reason to suspect that it wouldn’t air the week after the 12th episode. At the very minimum, there would be a lot of confusion.

  55. Kyle, you might find it ridiculous but that doesn’t stop them from believing it. The schedule definitely didn’t help.

  56. Since FOX were reading the website at the time of the schedule and failed to clarify it — twice, as per Todd’s email — that’s their own fault. Seriously, if a publicity departments reasoning is one blog on Blogger cost them 0.2 in the demo, they have serious issues. I’m not saying that is their take – I don’t know.

    b!X, I think you have a very valid point and I definitely think EOS may have caused some of the confusion.

  57. At the very minimum, there would be a lot of confusion.

    Which is very different than an “uproar”, of course. Now, FOX would certainly be completely silly to think that, in a world where Dollverse’s unofficial schedule had never been posted, there wouldn’t have been any reaction to Felicia’s tweet at all.

    But it’s not unreasonable to think the reaction would have been qualitatively different — confusing versus uproar, for example — absent the embedded fandom perception created by that unofficial schedule.

    Absent that schedule. Felicia would have tweeted, and FOX would have said “we never ordered that episode”, and that would more or less have been the end of it. But because the unofficial and incorrect schedule had been posted in March, that wasn’t the end of it, because the fandom had incorporated that unofficual schedule into its consciousness and spent a month thinking 1×13 had actually been scheduled for May 15 or May 22.

    All of which, of course, is entirely separate from the debate on how each element of the chain happened, which parts are FOX’s missteps, and which parts are Dollverse’s missteps. It just seems silly, to me, for anyone to suggest that the reaction would have been exactly the same.

  58. b!X, given it took FOX — what, a day to respond after Felicia’s text, and returned “No comment”? Schedule or not, given Joss had talked the episode up online, do we really think that would have played well?

  59. gossi, I have no idea if that is the publicity department’s reasoning. I never said it was. I said there are people at FOX. The problem here still is you’re acting like a child. It’s all FOX’s fault. You’re not responsible for your actions. You won’t take down the post until they apologize. It’s not good behavior. If you cared about DOLLHOUSE you wouldn’t be creating more bad mojo.

  60. the one true b!x, lets not forget that FOX is assuming that Day believed it would air because of the schedule going around on the internet.

  61. @gossi: I never said it “would have played well”. I said it would not have played out the way it did, and likely would have blown over more quickly.

    @Nick C: That’s all well and good, but assumptions and presumptions on Dollverse’s part were half the problem here, so I’m not simply going to give FOX a free pass for its own assumptions.

    Serious question: Did anyone bother to ask Felicia why she originally beleived it would air, to determine an actual fact on that question? Until and unless someone did and can source the answer, FOX’s assumption in that regard is no more defensible than Dollverse’s assumptions.

  62. Here’s a thing. I had an interview arranged with somebody on Dollhouse for when E1 aired.

    Nick C, I’ve not shifted all of the blame. I’ve openly said the language I used on the schedule, in restrospect was wrong.

  63. Except you are full of rubbish. Their exalted leader says “we will air 13” episodes and they aired 12.
    What ever kind of rubbish way they use to count the episodes behind the scenes is their problem.
    Dollverse simply wrote what they were told. They are not mind readers.
    But I guess this answers the question of where you work.

  64. b!x, I’m right there with you. I’m guessing and this is me assuming they talked to at least her manager or agent? However that makes me assume too. So I’m not going to.

    gossi, exactly. You’ve said “Hey look, I made a mistake,” but you’re dragging this out into a soap opera. It’s just not good. Be the better man.

  65. RickyG, they weren’t told “Epitaph One is airing on May 15th,” they assumed it was. There is a big difference. Which is where the problems started on Dollverse’s part. FOX is definitely to blame as well, but instead of people saying “sorry,” they’re being childish. Kind of like you saying I’m full of rubbish, that is childish.

  66. Nick C, I’ve posted the Dollverse thing and I plan to leave it at that.

  67. gossi, yes we know. You’re going to act like a ass because they did first. What a great guy you are.

    Dollhouse fans should be talking season 2, not reading about how you and FOX can’t get along.

  68. Nick,

    It’s his/her site. He can do whatever the hell he/she wants with it. If anyone is blowing it out of proportion, it is the people giving it publicity elsewhere, hint, hint. Gossi received a letter relating to her site, and he/she is free to post the letter if he/she chooses to do so. You’re the one presuming to tell people what they should and shouldn’t do with their websites and correspondence.

    As for ethics, I believe that truth=ethics, pure and simple.

    Now, onto whether Gossi “loves Dollhouse enough” to “be the bigger man”, I only say this. There are some things more important than shows, and that is self-respect and standing up for oneself. I, for one, would not delight in helping a show stay on the air if it hurts my self respect b/c I didn’t have the guts to stand up for myself. Also, I hate it when people condescendingly tell others to “be the bigger person.” You know what? That is a choice for those involved to make, and not for us to pass judgment on.

  69. Marian Martell

    Nick C, you complimented Joss’ fans for not getting angry or calling you names, but clearly we cannot return the compliment. You evidently feel comfortable using insulting language to gossi, who has not done the same to you.

    And just for the record I never was on Dollverse enough to see any posted schedule, I assumed that ‘Epitaph One’ would air because Kevin Reilly said 13 episodes would air, and statements from both Joss and Felicia made it clear that they understood that ‘Epitaph One’ was that 13th episode. If Fox is assuming that all of the Dollhouse fans read gossi’s website then I think they are assuming way too much.

  70. Artemis, I’m not telling him how to do anything. I’m suggesting. There is a difference.

    Marian, saying they are acting like an ass is instulting? Ok. I suggest quit acting like one. Also I’m not calling some fan an ass. I’m not calling the editor of Dollverse an ass. I’m saying they’re acting like an ass. Again, there is a difference.

    I’m just calling it how I and many others on the outside of the “Whedonverse,” see this.

  71. You’re stating your opinion, Nick, and I’ve no problem with that. My opinion differs from yours, which is also fine.

  72. gossi, I’m rarely the voice of reason, and I’ve been known to act stubbornly and childishly and to make a total ass of myself. I’m just trying to save you face, really. Let Todd Adair be the only one acting poorly. That is all I’m suggesting. You made your point, and everyone knows it. They’ll also know you pulled it after making your point. The only person left looking foolish at that point is FOX and Adair.

    Unlike others imply it’s just a suggestion.

  73. Reading some of the comments here it occurs to me that maybe someone somewhere knows who the hell you people are and that you are significant in some way, I don’t know, I feel like I’m in the Fanwank Zone.

    But Nick C, what you’re doing is kicking the smashed hornets’ nest into a child-filled sandpit. You speak of ethics in journalism and then call gossi an ass and make childish digs at him and Dollverse. Dollverse wasn’t ‘bitch-slapped’, it was sent an email which would have been marked with a C- in PR school. Your comment that Dollverse cost the show .2 in demographics makes me wonder whether you even own a television. Where did this arithmetic come from? You’re a step away from writing ‘boobs’ on your calculator.

    Fox PR have done little to dissemination of info on Dollhouse despite the online fanbase. If they truly believe that a fansite can cost them .2 on the demographics then they should have done a better job of promoting their own damn show online! I think it’s Todd who is getting bitch-slapped by the people who pay his wages, and he is taking it out on Dollverse.

    PR disaster by the director of PR himself.

  74. Kirsty, I think you should make a disclaimer about your website END OF SHOW being tied to Dollverse and Gossi. Knowing that it makes your reply really amusing.

  75. This is like an internet wankathon. *grabs Sugarpuffs*

  76. “I’m just calling it how I and many others on the outside of the “Whedonverse,” see this.”

    You probably think that b/c I’m defending Gossi that I am a Dollverse/Whedonesque regular. For the record, I’ve been on Whedonesque a couple of times, but only as a lurker, and I have no relationship with anyone there (b/c I’m shy, not b/c there’s anything wrong with them). I’d never, until today, been on Dollverse, and I also never knew that Gossi ran it, nor did I know who Gossi was. Furthermore, though I am a fan of Whedon’s work, I’m not all worked up about whether Dollhouse gets a second season or not, cuz quite frankly, I like Whedon’s other stuff more (that may change in the future, who knows?). So, I’m not speaking from a position of blind devotion to Dollhouse, nor a close relationship with anyone in the fandom. I’m not even sure what type of site Dollverse is, other than the little info I gathered from a brief look at it today. I’m participating in the discussion b/c of principle, b/c I truly believe that Gossi’s course of action was the correct one. Perhaps there was some mistake in the wording of a post on Dollverse somewhere along the way, but I hold that the letter was uncalled for and that Gossi was within his/her right to publish it. It was your attack on Gossi that prompted my defense, despite the fact that I don’t know Gossi. For me, it is the principle of the thing.

  77. I’ve no direct connection to gossi at all, only know him as a reader of Whedonesque. I actually find this recent development a bit ironic, as in most of the ratings threads I’ve read he’s been the one consistently saying not to heap all the blame for low ratings on Fox. He’s perhaps been the network’s biggest defender.

    I don’t see any way in any world where a leak that the 13th episode would not air wouldn’t cause fan riots. Regardless of knowledge of E1 or not – I certainly assume a midseason show order is 13 episodes, and if I hear Fox is only airing 12 I’m upset. Duh. Blaming hullabaloo on some extrapolated scheduling stuff gossi stuck up is I think rather rose-colored-glasses-y. And if it is indeed what upset Fox, then even more fault to the email-writer for coming off all pissy about something he didn’t address at the time. Unless he issued a large sigh and looked at gossi’s webpage with crossed arms & a sad expression, waiting for gossi to notice.

    I find the use of the word “lie” incredibly incendiary and probably designed mainly to grab pageviews. If you want to say gossi lied by allowing folks to think he was more of an insider than he was, fine. But to say he “lied” because he presented info he believed to be true at the time? Huh?

    And if gossi saying he’s not taking his stuff about this down until he gets an apology is childish, then you saying you won’t take this down till he takes his down is childish. gossi believes he’s doing what’s right. You state you believe publicity about that is bad & will hurt the show. So, er . . . .

    (And on that note: a fansite and a pr guy from Fox are in an argument, and so Dollhouse is gonna fail in Season 2? Uh, and how did Serenity do at the box office again?)

  78. Artemis, that’s great! I disagree, but I do see where you’re coming from. I just disagree.

    Kalia, no one asked me to take this down. I offered to take it down if they want to make it all go away. There is a difference there. As for gossi and lying, I’m 100% correct by the definition of the word:

    3. an inaccurate or false statement.

    A lie can be told with intent to deceive and without intent.

    You say it’s for page hits, and I 100% disagree. I’m getting 20 times the hits on my article on why DOLLHOUSE was renewed and on CHUCK season 3 rumors than on this post. I already said why I chose the word lie previously.

  79. I think you’d be hard pressed to find a case where people generally use the word “lie” to mean “an unintentionally false statement”. I’m not sure what dictionary you’re using, but it’s wrong, and even if you disbelieve me on that, you might want to bear in mind that 99% of readers of this site will read it as you accusing Gossi of deliberately misleading people.

    If your intent is to be understood correctly, and you didn’t intend to accuse Gossi of deliberately misleading people, you should pick another word.

  80. (And I agree, Gossi should probably take the message down. Fox clearly did not intend for it to be interpreted the way Dollverse interpreted it, it’s an unnecessarily caustic email but not one worth having a controversy over.)

  81. “1 : to make an untrue statement with intent to deceive
    2 : to create a false or misleading impression”

    And glancing through – I don’t see your definitions there either. Perhaps you actually meant gossi was acting like a Norwegian statesman?

  82. kalia:

    number 3 with a bullet 😉 However number 2 in your link works as well. Dollverse mislead people to believe that the episode would be aired on May 15, and then May 22nd. By your link, that would be a lie.

    squiggleslash, we can argue his intent or not to deceive, but a false statement has always been considered a lie. FOX is obviously upset because a false statement lead to a whole mess of nonsense.

  83. I’m having trouble believing there are people in the fandom that don’t think that false schedule caused any damage. Lies like that, intentional or otherwise, are going to cause people to react and behave differently than if it didn’t exist to begin with.

    I originally heard about the 13 episode order, then I read that the pilot was being moved to episode 2 before it was finally scrapped. At that point, I completely assumed there would only be 12 episodes until I read the fake scheduling at Dollverse.

    Later, when there was yet another falsehood spread about the 13th episode being pre-empted and talk of it not airing at all it made it seem like FOX was purposely ignoring an episode and ending the show early.

    Of course, this lead me to think FOX must hate the show and were ready to be rid of it.

    …and probably even affected how I looked at Nick’s C’s rumors about the show. LOL

  84. John T Folden, well I stopped saying that FOX was still considering renewal because Robert over at TVBTN was starting to think I was nuts! I admit I looked nuts.

    I agree it obviously had some affect, and I’m not going to guess as to how much. It combined with the hiatus was what a .3 loss in the demo? How much was the hub bub over the idea the show was dead because FOX was refusing to air an episode?

    We’ll never know. The good news is for people that liked the show it’s renewed. People need to celebrate. It’s the lowest rated scripted drama to possibly ever be renewed, but definitely in the last 20 years.

  85. I’ve been finding this whole thing very… well, it’s hard to describe how I’ve been finding it. But I do have a variety of opinions on the matter. Most of them related to the reactions posted here and on other websites.

    1. The e-mail itself: I understand their point of view, but the language and tone was unprofessional. I think most people would agree.

    2. No, I do not think it (the e-mail) should’ve been published. At least not on Dollverse. If anything, this sort of issue belongs on a personal blog, not a fandom site. Though I definitely support Kevin’s right to post whatever he wants, I think this is a matter of etiquette. It was unprofessional.

    I used to run a fansite for a musician who had no web presence at all, when I was younger. I once received a very rude email from her manager, regarding a post I had written about her newest album at the time. Though I was incredibly angry, I knew that the proper course was to keep the matter private. I was ten years old, at the time.

    3. As a member of Whedonesque, when I read Kevin’s (gossi) posts, I do tend to regard them with authority. I think most frequent readers do. At the same time, I not naive enough to consider everything he says as absolute truth. Unless it comes directly from FOX or Joss, I take everything with a fairly sizeable grain of salt. Skepticism is really the only way that makes sense, in my mind.

    4. Since there are apparently those who will believe anything they read on the internet, yes, Kevin should probably be careful to indicate the nature of his news sources.

    5. What is the point of this particular blog post? Personally, I see this as promotion of a personal grievance, similar to how I view Dollverse’s post on the matter. There is nothing in this post that could not have been communicated through private e-mail, if you really felt the need to share your views with Kevin.

    6. Though ultimately pointless, I can’t help but be irritated by the comments regarding the definition of “lie.” No, I do not believe Kevin lied in his posts. I believe he presented false information, which he believed to be true, at the time. And I think you’d have a difficult time finding someone who has never been in a similar situation before.

    If I were to tell you that our planet is not going to be attacked by invaders from Melmac, only to discover, hours later, that we have been surprisingly overrun with cat-eating aliens, would you call me a liar? Do you think I would’ve failed a polygraph test, when I provided you with my original statement?

    The fact that you had to skip over two definitions of the word that didn’t suit you should help you reach the conclusion that your usage of the word is third-rate, at best.

    7. I find it incredibly amusing that certain people who have recently characterized Kevin’s initial response as overdramatic (I mostly agree) are reacting to that response overdramatically. I have a hard time believing that much of the backlash with this issue isn’t the result of personal issues. Kevin may have a bruised ego as the result of the FOX letter, but I think there are egos around here that were bruised long before this issue ever arose.

    8. Seriously? I’m personally disappointed with myself, because I not only took the time to read all of the comments here and at Whedonesque, but also took the time to write this rather long comment. This is just a television series. From my point of view, if your livelihood does not depend on a television series, then a television series should not bring extra stress into your life. This is coming from someone who has bought six copies of Buffy: The Complete Series on DVD.

    And Nick C, just who would you like to have ask you to take this post down? Kevin? FOX? Joss? If you think this issue is doing a disservice to show and you care about the show’s success, then why is it still online?

    In the end, you’re the one with access to the “Delete” button. I agree with you that Dollhouse fans should be discussing and focusing on Season 2, and not an overblown disagreement between FOX and Kevin. So if you’re just waiting for anyone to ask you to take down this post, consider this sentence my request.

    And on that note, I’m going to turn off my angry mode and go to bed, fully disgusted that I spent a not-so-insignificant amount of time writing this. Oy.

  86. Nick – I think you completely and totally misunderstood everything I wrote.

    I did not argue whether Gossi intended to deceive. I said the use of the word “lie” does imply to 99% of the audience that you are claiming he intended to deceive.

    You can find poorly phrased dictionary definitions as much as you want, but the very fact we’re having this argument demonstrates the point I was making: everyone reading this blog took your choice of words to mean you’re accusing Gossi of knowingly stating something that was false. You’re now backtracking and saying “Well, he might have meant it, he might not, but I can find a dictionary somewhere that treats “lie” as a synonym for “incorrect” so I was right to use that word”.

    Lie does not mean “incorrect” to anyone reading this blog entry. It means “deliberately incorrect”, indeed, it doesn’t even mean “deliberately incorrect”, it means “maliciously, deliberately, incorrect” (otherwise every novel or screenplay could be characterized as a “lie”)

    Don’t go to the dictionary. Go to the people. Understand how people are reading your words.

  87. knuckleball, I’ll respond to the points that pertain to me:

    5. Why post about it? How about IRONY. FOX destroyed FIREFLY and fans had to rally the troops and got a movie made. Now fans hurt DOLLHOUSE and FOX has to rally and gets the show renewed. I’ve had twits, messages, and other things sent privately to me about the whole irony of it all. There for it’s here. A fansite acting in the worst interest of its fans is news worthy.

    6. In legal terms all that has to be proven is that X created a false impression that lead to financial suffering. In those terms it’s a lie. In some dictionaries it’s listed 2nd and some 3rd. I used it for a reason. It was much “sharper,” than “created false impressions,” and got my point across. These weren’t just silly mistakes FOX is bickering about, it’s a big deal (and they’re part of the problem themselves).

    7. I don’t know gossi at all, and this is most definitely not personal. Again it’s ironic and that irony leads to the post. You people are close to gossi so you don’t really see it. Others like Artemis might not see it because they may not have witnessed the FIREFLY fans reactions to how poorly that show was treated by FOX. Now fans treat a show poorly (save the show before it airs, fake schedules that make people believe the show is certainly canceled, etc) and FOX has to try and fix it all.

    This post exists because it’s news worthy. A fansite acting in the best interest of its editor vs the fans. That is why it’s here.

  88. squiggleslash, you can keep writing about this all you want. I used the word “lie,” because it put emphasis on the fact that Dollverse provided false information in an authoritative manner that resulted in hurting DOLLHOUSE.

    The fact is gossi meant to put the episode on the schedule despite not having any real confirmation what so ever. Having someone say “all the episodes will air,” is entirely different from FOX releasing a schedule with “Epitaph One will air on May 15th.” He knew he didn’t have complete knowledge of it and he posted it as fact. That is a lie with intent.

    It was deliberately posted with knowledge it may not be correct. That is a lie. Was it malicious? No. Did he do it to hurt the show? No. However it all ended up happening that way and that is how lies end up working out some time.

  89. As a casual fan of the show, I find it surprising that some fans of the show seem to have more loyalty to Gossi than the show.

    Seems to me, it does the show no good to turn the fans against Fox over a perceived slight of a fansite.

    Come the fall, if the show is struggling in the ratings, these same fans will the ones begging Fox to keep the show on the air. A “I hate Fox” attitude isn’t going to help.

    Hey, it could happen. It will be going against Southland, Ugly Betty, and Medium. All 3 have gotten 2.0 or over in the demo in other timeslots. So they have fans, and there is limited number of them on Fridays anyway. It’s easy to see a scenario where a House rerun could do better.

  90. “As a casual fan of the show, I find it surprising that some fans of the show seem to have more loyalty to Gossi than the show. ”

    As I said before, I wouldn’t know Gossi if I hit him with my car. That being said, I respect each individual’s right to stand up for himself over any show any day of the week.

  91. Nick – then you’re not going to be taken seriously. This isn’t about me telling you what to do, it’s me telling you what you are doing. You’re leaving readers with a false impression of events by using loaded language whose common definition is contrary to your usage.

    People will not understand what you mean. They’ll find out the facts, find them contrary to your depiction, and consider you unreliable (or a big fat liar, to use your new definition of the word!)

    Honestly, it’s friendly advice, use words as they’re commonly used.

  92. squiggleslash, well I’m not changing it. In FOX’s mind he lied. I’m not changing my wording because that is what is going on here. FOX is mad because he supplied information that he lead people to believe was official. That is lying. He had no confirmation from FOX they were pre-empting the show. So that is making something up and reporting it as official. That is a lie. I’m sorry you have trouble seeing that.

  93. Artemis, I find it amusing that when someone makes a broad generalization that surely wasn’t aimed at you, you think it was. You’ve already stated your position, so they obviously were not referring to you but the others who have replied.

  94. Yes, there’s plenty of irony here, but I’d say very little of it has anything to do with Firefly.

    “I’d pull it from your website, I’d pull discussions about it from your website. If Whedonesque and others did the same, I too would pull it from my blog. It’s dirty laundry that really doesn’t need to taint DOLLHOUSE which has had enough bad image associated with it before it ever even aired. It doesn’t need more now that FOX has shown faith in it.”

    I completely agree with this statement. I didn’t like seeing the thread on Whedonesque, I don’t think it belongs on Dollverse, and I don’t understand why it’s here at all. Nick, you seem to think that Kevin should be the bigger man in this situation (I agree), but you seem to be completely unwilling to do the same. Rather than waiting to follow, why not set an example? This isn’t news, it’s a rant, followed by 90 other rants. Much like the Dollverse article, it belongs on a personal blog, if anywhere.

    Just out of curiosity, though, how exactly have you *proven* that anything Kevin has ever said has led to financial suffering for FOX? You can’t. Even if you were to find a correlation, you would not be able to prove causation, beyond any doubt. Which is why any application of a legal definition is completely laughable and contradicts your very definition. If this were a legal setting, there would be no case. You need to have both actus reus (commit an act) and mens rea (intent to commit that act). It’s why mistake of fact is commonly used as a defense against charges of defamation.

    Personally, I think using the word “lie” in this context is no better than tabloid journalism. But this is your blog, so go wild.

    Though my 7th point was actually not aimed at you, you do bring up something I’d like to address…

    Yes, I’m a member of Whedonesque. However, I do not consider myself close with any member of that website. I check the website daily, I read and write comments, but I don’t personally know any of the members. They don’t know me. I have no real personal connection. If tragedy were to strike one of them, I would feel bad for them when I found out, but it wouldn’t cause me to grieve. I’m not close with Kevin. I doubt we’ve even addressed each other in the Whedonesque comments, but I’m not certain.

    Therefore, I would appreciate it if you would not assume that I am unable to see your point, because I’m capable of commenting on one website. I see your point. I disagree with it.

    I think FOX has been doing a pretty decent job with Dollhouse. I get frustrated by the constant “Evil FOX” comments on Whedonesque and elsewhere. But I’m not going to adopt a “poor FOX” stance, because they renewed a show I like. PR is their job. It is their job to clean up PR messes, regardless of who caused them. It’s part of what they’re paid to do.

    Interestingly, there’s no one in this situation that I agree or disagree with completely. FOX has made several PR blunders, in my opinion, but have overall been pretty decent toward the show, so I’m willing ignore them. Kevin made the same assumption that many fans (including myself) made, given what information he had at the time. Others took it as fact, which was not entirely his fault. However, posting the email from FOX was unprofessional and will most likely cost Dollverse a lot of traffic.

    Nick C, I disagree that this item is newsworthy in any way at all. I agree with most of your original post, actually, I just don’t think it was worth posting. I also don’t agree with your belief that Dollverse lied to the public or that they directly caused hurt to the show.

    But this is your blog and I really don’t think the issue is worth the time I’m putting into it. So, anyway, whatever way it goes – thanks for letting me mouth off for a bit.

  95. Knuckleball, I disagree. I find it very news worthy. I also never implied that it could be proven that the whole ordeal lost the show viewers, but we all know better. We know it did, but we also know it can’t be proven. Thus we have no idea how many, etc.

    As for replying to your point 7, I don’t post/read any Whedon site. I’m not a Whedonite. So if you were referring to others here or elsewhere I’d have no clue. So I assumed it was me, and thus made an ass out of myself (see people, I told you it happens).

    To people outside the Whedonverse, this is an amusing story. Because usually it’s the evil network, and now it’s the fansite acting in the worst interest of the show. Sorry, but knowing the sites that link to this story and the posts that link to it, it’s obvious this amuses a lot of people, and thus is news worthy.

    However, feel free to mouth off here whenever it pleases you. I enjoy reading it, whether I agree with it or not.